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zorrothefox.movieserialmess... |
stunt fighting |
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Another aspect of serial making I always wondered about was how detailed the scripts got on the fights. was it just hero and villain start fight here and end
up there or were specific actions actually written into the script.
Z |
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Chuck White |
#1 | |||
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Just a guess here, but I would say in Republic's case that stunt fighting was choreographed in detail as the fights were fairly intense and involved. The fight scenes were Republic's specialty after all.
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Black Tigrrr.movieserialmess... |
#2 | |||
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Yakima Canutt is credited with creating the Republic stunt-fighting style. Ace stuntmen like Dave Sharpe, Tom Steele, Dale Van Sickle, Duke Green, Ken Terrell,
Eddie Parker and many others took the style to a whole new level.
Quick-cut close-up fight scenes today pale in comparison to the ballet-like choreography of Republic. |
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Chuck White |
#3 | |||
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The disembodied, smoking feline head speaks true! |
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zorrothefox.movieserialmess... |
stunt fighting | #4 | ||
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I realize and understand all the points you have made.
But my question has to do with the detailing in the scripts. did they just say: Steele and Sharpe start here and end on the other side of the room, and let the stuntment work out the details, or were their bits of business and some details worked into the scripts that the director or directors wanted the stuntmen to follow. That is what I am trying to discern. Z |
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Riddle Rider |
#5 | |||
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Z, the extent to which fights were scripted varied from studio to studio. Republic's writers produced very detailed scripts and described action fairly
precisely. However, the director and stunt ramrod worked together to refine the individual "falls" (whenever a stunt man goes down following a punch
or other blow) and "gags" (leaps through windows, across tables, from balconies). Some fight sequences were written with standing sets in mind,
enabling the writers to envision the donnybrook and script it accordingly. Sometimes set construction dictated the exact movements of a fight. When the set was
large enough, the directors preferred to have the stuntmen use all of it, fighting around the perimeter as well as in the middle.
Not long ago I was looking at my copy of the shooting script for PERILS OF NYOKA. It had very detailed fight sequences, but I noticed that in most cases the final version differed to at least some degree from the scripted version. I imagine a lot of this had to do with the capabilities of the stuntmen and "gags" they evolved during the rehearsal process. The precision of some "gags" and "falls" can be chalked up to the director's knowledge of a stuntman's skill. Fight scenes with Dave Sharpe doubling the hero tend to be more acrobatic, because he was a tumbler and worked well with other tumblers, including Jimmy Fawcett and Ken Terrell. Tom Steele's fights mostly have him slugging it out, flat-footed, with the other stunters. When anybody makes a daring leap in a Tom Steele fight, it's one of the heavies (usually Duke Green). SPY SMASHER would have been a much different (and, in my opinion, weaker) serial had Steele been doubling Kane Richmond instead of Dave Sharpe. The script for BATMAN, which is pretty sparse in some respects, has some fairly detailed descriptions of the fights, although there again the final results differ somewhat from the script. Just now, after typing the above words, I flipped through a couple of my silent-serial scripts to see how those writers handled fights. Here's one example of Frank Leon Smith's scripting of a fight in the 1926 Charlie Chan serial, HOUSE WITHOUT A KEY: Scene 135. Foreground French window. John dives at Saladine and brings him down, screen netting and all. They fight. --------- Scene 137. Saladine's room. Saladine and John fighting all over the place. Give it detail: over chairs, over tables, against trunks, booting hand bags aside, tipping over decanter and glasses. --------- Scene 140. Saladine's room. Saladine and John fight over the bed and all around. Make it savage. That's actually more detail than you find in many silent-serial scripts describing fight sequences. Much of the time the writer will make general comments like, "Make it a whopper." Individual falls and gags are almost never described. The generally free-swinging fights you see in many Universal serials strike me as having been barely scripted or barely directed. Or both. Then again, their sloppiness may just have been due to a lack of time. Some directors considered fight staging a nuisance; Ford Beebe was one of them. He recognized the importance of having thrilling fights in serials, but he hated staging them on the limited amount of time a serial schedule afforded. But I don't have any Universal serial scripts, so I can't say how tight or how loose the fights were scripted. |
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Black Tigrrr.movieserialmess... |
#6 | |||
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Judging by much of the modern day stunt fighting, most directors either can't stage them or don't know how to.
Thanks for the post, RR. |
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zorrothefox.movieserialmess... |
stunt fighting | #7 | ||
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RR
Thank you. You told me exactly what i wanted to know. Some day I would like to see a script from a serial such as Perils of Nyoka or Spy Smasher. Hey, I have an idea. why don't we do our own melo-drama, using a real serial script and assign everyone roles?? Z |
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Captain Canuck |
#8 | |||
zorrothefox wrote:said, Zorro as he braced himself for a whisky bottle to be broken over his head followed by a chair to be broken over his back... LOL Z. |
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Chuck White |
#9 | |||
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Great stuff! Thanks, RR. I have missed your insights and info, muchly. |
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Pa Stark.movieserialmess... |
#10 | |||
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I remember reading somewhere with the fight in the board room in chapter one of THE CRIMSON GHOST, that Dale VanSickle made a bet that he could slide across
the table without knocking off anything on it. You can see that pencil holders, etc were re-arranged from where they were earlier, so that leads me to believe
it wasn't in the script.
Remember, you can always trust Honest Pa Stark |
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Black Tigrrr.movieserialmess... |
#11 | |||
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Here's another question on stunt fighting. I've always wondered why the fights at late Republic became so lackluster even though they used the same
stuntmen. I know the directors were different which makes a real difference with the actors, but still you'd think with pretty much the same seasoned stunt
team (Steele, Van Sickle, etc.) they could mount a more impressive spectacle. I'm watching the fights in Desperadoes of the West and they are pretty
dismal.
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Chuck White |
#12 | |||
Black Tigrrr wrote: Perhaps, with the serials petering out and budgets being reduced (with corresponding reduced stuntman salaries, I assume), the stuntmen didn't feel the urgency to put their full efforts into the stunts in these later serials. And the reduced budgets also meant reduced shooting schedules (again, an assumption) that meant the directors and/or stuntmen didn't have the time to plot out more exciting fisticuffs. Also, I would guess they weren't getting any younger. |
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Riddle Rider |
#13 | |||
Black Tigrrr wrote:Part of it was age. Remember, DESPERADOES is seven years later than the glory days of serial fights in DAREDEVILS OF THE WEST, SECRET SERVICE IN DARKEST AFRICA, THE MASKED MARVEL, and CAPTAIN AMERICA. But directorial choices account for the rest of it. The key thing was that Fred Brannon, during his tenure as solo serial director, put an end to undercranking during the fights. So you're seeing those '50s fights at normal speed, 24 frame per second, rather than the 20 frames used to shoot fights in something like SECRET SERVICE or MASKED MARVEL. Secondly, he relied on longer takes, doing most of the fight in a master shot and coming in for fewer close-ups and quick cuts than Witney, English, Bennet, et al. That destroyed the pacing of fights, so in those long takes you're watching middle-aged men whaling away on each other for what seems like forever. |
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Black Tigrrr.movieserialmess... |
#14 | |||
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Thanks for the insight on Brannon, RR.
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Captain Canuck |
#15 | |||
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I echo BT, RR.
Another aspect of the same thing is cattle stampedes. How in the blazes did they manage cattle stampedes? I have read that in the days of the real cattle drive the cattle were as spooky as could be and would take off running at any time. Managing the stampede was a dangerous and deadly job. One of the jobs breeders did was to take the wildness out of the cattle. By comparison the cattle with which the movie cowboys would have to work were comparatively docile. Or were they? Any cows I ever saw on my grandfather's farm would run about three steps and then stop. I'm rambling. But you get the idea. How did Hollywood get the cattle to run, run in the right direction, run a long distance and then get them to stop on cue? On the How the West Was Won DVD there is an extended section on the filming of buffalo stampede which was almost a fiasco, but cattle would be different. |
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Black Tigrrr.movieserialmess... |
#16 | |||
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Cap, your comment reminds me of a time I met a coworker and his pretty Japanese wife at a sideshow. She didn't speak any English, but listened attentively
as we discussed a trained cat show by a Russian troupe visiting town. When we wondered just how they managed to train cats to do tricks, the wife leaned over
to me and spoke English for the first time. She whispered "I think they use... torture!"
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Riddle Rider |
#17 | |||
Captain Canuck wrote:When I started going up to Lone Pine and talking with the locals about moviemaking up there, I learned a lot about Russell Spainhower, whose Anchor Ranch (which is still there, right along Highway 395 a mile or two south of the town itself) supplied stock and ranch hands to movie producers. Out in the Alabama Hills, that rocky area where Westerns were mostly shot, there was an area that is still referred to as "Cattle Pocket." It's a spot where the Hills narrow and the rock cliffs form a natural corral that can hold several hundred head of cattle. For stampede scenes, the Anchor ranch heads would run the herd toward Cattle Pocket, and the cows would stop on their own once they had nowhere else to run. Sedona's Oak Creek Canyon has another of these natural corrals formed by rock cliffs. It's used for that exact purpose in at least two of my favorite B-Westerns: 1935's STORMY, with Noah Beery Jr., and the 1937 Hopalong Cassidy film, TEXAS TRAIL. Both movies involve the herding (and stampeding) of wild horses in that area. I have no idea how stampedes were handled anywhere else, but I have to guess that a similar method was used. Getting a stampede going in one direction is not difficult; you just make sure the leader is pointed in the direction you want, and the others will follow him. Getting them to stop is the tough part, and I don't know how else it could have been done. Somebody up at Lone Pine -- I think it might have been Russ Spainhower's granddaughter, who's still alive -- recalled that one time Spainhower got hassled by the ASPCA because he ran a herd of cattle in and out of Cattle Pocket several times in one day so that the director could get multiple takes from different angles. The ASPCA called it abuse. Spainhower called it exercise. |
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Captain Canuck |
#18 | |||
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Super, RR. Thanks for the interesting information.
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